For: João Vitor Santos | 09 February 2021
While theBrazilian government set up diplomatic quarrels, plunged into chaos and death from pandemic, aChina followed its course and sent theBrazil afirst vaccine against Covid-19, in addition to inputs for the production of vaccines from other pharmaceutical companies. For the International Relations professor and retired diplomatFausto Godoy this is illustrative of how much not only Brazil, but theWestern generally fall short of Chinese logic and thinking. “AChina not only is it not already organizing itsvaccination how are you sending vaccines to the whole world, and not to mention the sending of technicians and equipment ”, watch, in a telephone interview to theIHU On-Line. Besides that, draws attention to the way in which the population responds culturally well to government actions and demonstrates better results to curb thenew coronavirus. “What made the Chinese obey is their concept of life in society, that makes them responsible for each other ”.
The teacher recognizes that the posture of theBrazilian government hurt something that is very expensive tochineses, provoking even official responses. But it draws attention to the fact that they look beyond and, actually, to treat this situation really like quarrels. “They are strategists and consider theBrazil very important for them, because it gives them what they need most, that is food ”, analysis. It's complete: “aChina always keeps the long-term look, like everything you do. Its concept is that of eternity, the weight ofhistory in China it is fundamental".
Therefore, Godoy finds it much more interesting to look at thegreat chinese movements that have elevated the nation to the top of the world. “The focus ofChina and another, become this great technological power in the world and what found thelast congress of the Communist Party is this definition of whatChina will be, oneModerately Prosperous Society; this is the goal of the Chinese government ”, Explain. According to him, this status goes beyond dominating high-tech production chains and establishing commercial relationships with almost everyone. It is also related to the social well-being of the population. “AChina eradicated absolute misery, declared the government at the meeting ofCommunist Party Congress, last November. It means that aChina, with a billion and 300 millions of inhabitants did what we, noBrazil, failed, which is the transformation into a moderately prosperous society ”, complete.
Still in the following interview, the professor analyzes Chinese history and the pillars that support this ancient society, but extremely connected with the changes in the world. It is five thousand years of history that crosses kingdoms, empires, republics, more than, essentially, keeps a look on its people and reinforces the concept of ‘mandate from heaven’. “Ahistory of China it's been like this since the oldest dynasties, likeShang: always starts like this. Usually a group, a tribe rises to power and society delegates “the mandate of heaven”, that is, the right to govern it according to its precepts, conditioning, however, that these leaders correspond to their desires; otherwise they will lose that mandate and be overthrown. That is, the government is developing until the moment that it does not serve more, then another dynasty falls and begins, and so it goes", emphasizes. “What touched me the most in allAsia was the search for harmony within theSocial context. There is dispute and fights, but in everyday life, living in society is much more organic, much more harmonic, less forceful and much less quarrelsome ”, ends.
Fausto Godoy(Photo: Personal archive)
Fausto Godoy holds a law degree from the Toledo Education Institution, in Bauru, Sao Paulo. Studied doctorate at the University of Paris (I), in Public International Law, and History of Art at the École du Louvre. He entered the diplomatic career in 1976, served in Brussels embassies, Buenos Aires, Nova Delhi, Washington, Beijing, Tokyo, Islamabad (where he was Ambassador of Brazil, in 2004). Still fulfilled transitory missions in Vietnam and Taiwan. Lived 16 years in Asia, where he guided his career because he considered the continent to be the most important of the 21st century. He is currently coordinator of the Asian Studies and Business Center at ESPM and coordinates the websiteWorld map, in which it publishes analyzes of the international situation.
Check out the interview.
IHU On-Line - In this edition of the Davos Economic Forum in 2021, Chinese President Xi Jinping warned of what he called a "new cold war". What are the main issues of this alert? How to read the Chinese message about multilateralism?
Fausto Godoy - AChina of 2021 is completely different from ten years ago, because it is in an accelerated process of modifying parameters, not only economical, but also almost civilizational. I listened carefully toXi Jinping inDavos and I noted some emphases that he made in the speech that fit perfectly in thisChina of 2021 what I mentioned.
First, Xi talks a lot about global governance. In the context of thisglobal governance highlights the importance of international bodies. We know that this was one of the fundamental points of the policy ofDonald Trump - at the Davos meetingTrump was still in power -, this idea ofAmérica first, a “demultilaterization" FromUSA. Then, the message thatXi Jinping deu emDavos it was exactlysupport for multilateralism. This is very important because it coupled multilateralism to the globalization process.
Aglobalization is fundamental for theChina, because it needs international trade, the Chinese economy survives above all from international trade. And this is the beacon for theChina; do not forget that theChina is the main trading partner for 124 countries of the world, against near 60 to the USA. This already demonstrates the importance of this trade. Is forChina or multilateralism, where there is an agreement on the main points of an international agenda, it is fundamental for her.
In your speech, Xi Jinping speaks a lot about the importance ofG20, which is very symptomatic he does not mention theG7, of whichChina don't participate; he places the G20 as the main organ of theinternational governance. Then, is wanting to share with the other countries that are part of theG20 the leadership ofinternational trade, and not removing the importance of the G7 or G9, raises theG20 to a broader level, with more countries interacting together.
It is possible to consider a country like China, which has the largest number of billionaires on the planet and private companies the size of Huawei and Xiaomi as a communist? - Fausto Godoy Tweet
End of communism vs. capitalism
He also speaks of the importance of respecting diversity for international coexistence. This for him is very important, insofar as it removes this piece of “communism X capitalism”, because they are terms that are more and more anachronistic; no longer makes sense in 2021 speak up incommunism. I wonder, inclusive: what is communism in 2021? From tofall of the Berlin wall there is no longer an orthodox communism. The contemporary international agenda is much more diverse than theconservative ideological.
It is possible to consider a country like theChina, which has the largest number of billionaires on the planet and private companies the size ofHuawei and yesXiaomi as a communist? This insistence that the West has to analyze theChina how “communist” is anachronistic. This is something that interests some countries: find communist threat in a world where there is no. Respect for political and economic diversity is needed. If we read "The capital”, ofKarl Marx, we will see that applying your “recipes” toChina of 2021 is something “stratospheric”.
Century of humiliations
The great trauma forchineses it is still the heritage of thecolonialism. Don't forget that the 19th century was the “Century of Humiliations" to theChina, as they call it today: was when thechinese empire suffered two “Opium Wars" - in 1839 e 1856 – promoted by the court ofLondon, WhenBeijing decided to resist the spurious consumption of opium thatEngland exported it as the only way to try to balance the bilateral balance of trade, highly deficient for her. Chinese products – that, porcelain, tea, spices, etc. - had “invaded” Europe in the 19th century and there was nothing but silver – fromLatin America, by the way, that the Portuguese and Spanish courts, Economically “vassals” of the English, transferred toLondon -, that the English could offer that interested theBeijing. Do not forget that until the 19th century theChina was the world's largest economic power.
Contextualizing, fruit of its pioneering spirit inIndustrial Revolution, aEngland starts to grow at the beginning of the 19th century and needs alternative markets to expand its market, Because theEurope it is not enough for her. Obviously looking forChina, and tries to “entice” the court of “Middle Empire”. It was when theKing George III sent a mission toBeijing to propose the opening of Chinese ports to trade with theEngland. Everything went wrong on this mission. It's atreply letter that theEmperor Qianlong sent theGeorge III it is “anthological”.
In it, Qianlong call the kingfrom England “vassal” because, for theMiddle Empire, all other countries were its vassals. And keeps going: “oh, you vassal who wants to start trading with me and establish warehouses in my country, know that there is nothing that can send me that is of interest to me. Be happy and remain a good vassal ”. in short, the terms of the letter are more or less these.
When Deng Xiaoping takes power, will realize that this is exhausted, will recognize that Mao Zedong did what he did, but you will realize that you need to deconstruct this and open yourself to the world - Fausto Godoy Tweet
Imagine what this was for theking of england. Like thechineses they wanted nothing from them to offset trade, it was then that the British decided to export opium that they produced in the northeast ofChina and sent them there, transforming, as I said before, aChina in a drug addict country. It was at the moment when theBeijing court resolve to resist this all that the English promote and win the two wars; and it was after the first one that they got, furNanjing Treaty, the island property ofHong Kong, that belonged toGreat Britain up until 1997.
These suffered humiliations were very marked in the psyche of the Chinese. Even when I was there, in 1994, I heard this conversation about the trauma of “century of humiliations”. Result: this got ingrained in the Chinese mind, so much that the “honor ransom”Is at the psychosocial root ofcommunist revolution.
Communism by Mao and its limits
Good, Thecommunism established byMao Tse-tung, in 1949, when theChinese Communist Party took power inBeijing, the dialectic, the philosophical structure, economic and political communism, it all fit into theChina from that moment. Now, from 1979, WhenDeng Xiaoping takes power, he knows that "the thing is not there". You'll notice that this is sold out, will recognize thatMao Tse-tung did what you did, but it is necessary to deconstruct this and open up to the world. Like this, decides to promote what he calls “socialist market economy”, what is a wonderful economic neologism.
How can you qualify thechinese communism? In fact, we can consider it an experimentalism in the search for a Chinese recipe for its development as a country. And whenDeng Xiaoping will create the special economic zones and everything. That is, that was theChina of today. Therefore, talk about “Communist china" from 1979, fromDeng Xiaoping, is at least, in the case of the most read people, a lie, and in the case of some governments out there, total ignorance.
What he calls the Cold War today is the change in the paradigm of the geoeconomic axis from the Atlantic to the Pacific / China - Fausto Godoy Tweet
IHU On-Line - So, you explained to us how this nation has been gaining space in the world to arrive at a forum like Davos and alert to a new Cold War. But what Cold War is talking about?
Fausto Godoy - WhatXi Jinping calls “Cold War”Is the war that was explicit whenDonald Trump was in power, this fight for economic-commercial spaces; currently, withJoe Biden, is still unknown. It will not change the positioning betweenUSA and China substantially, because what is at stake is something much more important: what is called “Cold War”, nowadays, is the transfer of the geoeconomic axis of theAtlantic to the Pacific / China. Result: aChina is leading this process oftransfer of the economy from the West to the East, which is increasingly evident.
In thislast congress of the Communist Party, held now in November, this was very clear. Xi Jinping spoke in his speech that theChina turned into amoderately prosperous society. What does this mean forXi Jinping, when saying this at the meeting ofCommunist Party? It means that he wants to highlight, and did that inDavos also, what toChina ended absolute misery. This he affirms loud and clear. It means that China with a billion and 300 millions of inhabitants did what we, noBrazil, failed: is its transformation into aModerately Prosperous Society.
But what does this mean? What made theChina in 20th century China, in the eraDeng Xiaoping, from 1979? What did, So, was to manufacture and commercialize low-tech products, textiles, little toys, marble, Natal balls, etc.; it was with all this she “invaded” the street 25 March, here inSao Paulo. With this he made his wealth, including using their cheap and abundant labor. In 2015, she created the plan “Made in China 2025”. It is a plan in which she decided to take a technological leap. Has an important book, whatXi Jinping quote at all times, which is written by a professor atDefense Academy of China, his name isLiu Mingfu. The title of the book is “The China Dream” (CN Times Books Inc., 2015) [english edition].
In the first chapter of the first page of this book the author says that thedream of China and become, at the end of the 21st century, in the main world power. E, for him, this means becoming the largest world economy. In the words of the author himself, “Means that the economy ofChina will lead the planet. Based on that, aChina will become the most powerful country in the world. As theChina takes these steps to be the greatest power of the 21st century, your goal is nothing less than the top, become the leader of the modern global economy ” [free translation of the interviewee]. This is written in the book, eXi Jinping repeats in almost every speech he makes.
It is with this ambition that the Chinese resolved, in 2015, create the plan “Made In China 2025”, in which ten cutting-edge technology sectors were selected to make that big leap to reach the top of the greatest economic and technological power on the planet. AChina is ceasing to produce its low-tech products and outsourcing them to countries in the region, for theVietnam, Philippines, countries where labor is cheap, products that made it so important in this first stage of the development process, from the eraDeng Xiaoping.
I will list the ten products that they want to include Chinese home content, made with household components, in up 40%, up until 2020, and then, in 70%, up until 2025. Because the goal is to reduce China's dependence on foreign technology, inserting Chinese high-tech manufacturers into the global market.
The ten key sectors are:
1) advanced information technology;
2) digital control machines and tools;
3) robotic;
4) planes, ocean and navigation equipment;
5) rail transport equipment;
6) automobiles using new energy sources;
7) electrical power equipment;
8) farm equipment;
9) new materials
e
10) biopharmaceutical and medical equipment. That is, the technological world.
This is the ambition ofChina, this is the dream ofXi Jinping.
The technological world. That's China's ambition, this is Xi Jinping's dream - Fausto Godoy Tweet
Looking in another world
If you see all this that I have treated and compared with theWestphalian world [the callWestphalian system, became a reference to guide European international relations, about everything, during the period between 1648 e 1789, consolidating the concept of the National State, under development, in differentiated stages, inPortugal, Spain, England eFrance, linked toAbsolutist monarchies, since the 15th century; inaugurating the principle of state sovereignty] you will see that your ideals are of no interest to the Chinese. THEWestphalian world, which is our unbalanced world of you having to expel the Syrians from their homes and all these wars, this no longer fits in the head of theChina, that already chases another parameter.
It's us, noWestern, that we have to resolve our border issues; aChina no border problem, she solved practically all the borders that she had. People question aboutTaiwan it's theTibet. It's a very controversial topic, massChina always considered these two places as if they were hers for reasons and reasons that we can discuss forever; but we will see that notXXI century aChina did not invade any country. Did not make war against any country. TheUSA, in its turn, for several reasons, went to theAfghanistan, Iraq… it's atChina quiet…
This is because in the head of theChinese government the 21st century world has nothing to do with territory. Territory is a colonial heritage that she suffered, is very. This colonial ambition toChina did not have, because she was not a colonizer but, sim, colonized; so you don't have to resolve these boundaries all, except those ofTibet eTaiwan, and with theIndia. The focus ofChina and another, become agreat technological power in the world and everything that happened in thislast congress of the Communist Party, this definition of whatChina will be, the goal of a moderately prosperous society, is the goal ofChinese government.
The trade war is in the fact that China wants to take its project forward and, evidently, this process threatens the hegemony of the West - Fausto Godoy Tweet
IHU On-Line - But that does not mean that there are no disputes, like the trade war itself. Where do you place this trade war?
Fausto Godoy - Atrade war reveals the commitment ofChina to take this project of yours forward and, evidently, this process threatens the hegemony of the West, basically from the central West. We can think: what was the initiative thatChina took in this trade war? None; she just reacted. The “quarrelsome” wasDonald Trump, who created theAmerica First and started “poking” her. AChina never did that, even because she was very well. It was from the advances of the Americans that she began to react. Then, actually, ontrade war she is not the one who takes the initiative; is reacting. AChina threat? Of course, threatens with reality!
Western concepts and values, although with globalization, and everything, are not the values of the Chinese - Fausto Godoy Tweet
IHU On-Line - Some analyzes point out that China's interest is to make the West its great consumer market in order to become this great world power and for that reason ignores values so dear to the West, like the idea of humanism. How do you observe this?
Fausto Godoy - First, we need to think: what is culture? What is cultural hegemony? Who wears jeans? We all, the Chinese even. Who watches American films around the world? This is notsoft-power? So it is, this is not cultural domination? Then, do you mean that thiscultural domain of the West, with their truths that are now being threatened by "aliens", is what we can call the sunset of thehumanism?
I lived for 16 years in 11 Asian countries, passing byChina, India, Japan, Pakistan, I lived in six Muslim countries, and as a result of this experience, I understood that the concepts of the West do not translate into the East. EstesWestern concepts and values, even with globalization and everything, are not theChinese values. THEWestern humanism it's not the humanism of the Chinese. The Chinese have a wonderful thing called “Confucianism”. And summarizing the Confucian philosophy, we can say that for her the good citizen is one who respects his father, your family, your neighbors, your society and your leaders.
In this universe, which has always been plural, the individual will be realized in society. Aculture of the East turns out to be that of man inserted in society. Awestern culture, instead, it has always been the culture of “me”, the culture of “Declaration of Human Rights”French. That is, my right goes as far as yours begins. Diametrically opposed are the concepts of insertion of the individual in theWestern and noEast. Most countries in the East, especially those from East Asia, have this Confucian background very present in their civilization. Then, if we talk aboutDescartes, ofPlato eAristotle and allwestern culture, we see that when talking about whethernon-eastern culture there is talk ofConfucius and all your other great philosophers and thinkers.
Do thechineses are threatening thewestern culture with yourConfucianism? Does our humanism translate into Chinese (or mandarin)? This worldview is basic: how we have our view of the world, and our truths, considering them absolute and irreproachable, we think that anyone who does not share our truths and concepts is not a humanist. If we go there, they will think not, that we are selfish and self-centered. That's why I question: will thatexpansion of China, which is - and will be geoeconomic - and not geocultural, means that China wants to “culturalize” the world, transforming theWestern culture dependent onChinese culture? Never!
https://www.youtube.com/embed/OTv-ec7t7nQ
THEChinese is pragmatic, TheConfucianism is pragmatic, TheBuddhism in China didn’t “catch” a lot because it has stratified values and ethics and the Chinese, that are absolutely social in the sense of coexistence, what they want is well-being. AChinese culture is based on the family axis, in the coexistence of the family and the nuclear society; of the family, expands to the city and so on. And it is extremely pragmatic. So much so that religions are diffuse, you don't get to know which religion is dominant in China.Confucianism it's not religion, it's philosophy. Chinese is Buddhist? Sim, and not. It's Taoist? Sim, and not: is Taoist, Buddhist and everything you want and what will suit you at a given time.
That's what we need to understand, because we are now with a very radical view, onereligious radicalization that ends up turning everything into ideology. THEChinese is not caring at all about it. We are the ones who get upset, because we think the world should be seen in our own way. Which isXi Jinping spoke atDavos Forum, nointernational humanism.
The Chinese is not caring at all about this. We are the ones who import them because we think the world should be seen in our own way - Fausto Godoy Tweet
IHU On-Line - Still at the end of 2019, the world looked to China trying to understand its growth and power on the global stage. But, this same China was the first country impacted by the new coronavirus. How the pandemic impacted this Chinese rise and reconfigures today's China in its relationship with the world?
Fausto Godoy - Which are thevaccines who are saving the West? Where they come from? GivesChina, givesIndia, givesRussia, these vaccines are saving us. French vaccine is not mentioned, english… It is as if it were a “revenge” of theEast. Apandemic may have started atChina, how yellow fever started elsewhere, as well as other pests: pandemic has no border. It is assumed that this pandemic started in China, currently, because China is a country that is experiencing the consequences of a profoundurbanization process, which is, by the way, one of the biggest challenges for the Chinese government.
Imagine that even 1976, when the “Great Leap in Advance" ofMao Zedong, aChina it was an eminently agrarian country.Mao tried to industrialize theChina in an accelerated manner, and it was a catastrophe: 20 millions of people died because it was not prepared to industrialize in this way. Now it's onurbanization process extremely accelerated, and we're talking about a billion and 300 millions of people moving. So much so that they have a process they callhukou, by which the individual has to have a kind of identity / passport from the place where he was born. According to this process, that still exists, but it is increasingly falling into disuse, as ahukou wallet he is entitled to free school for his children, public health and other social benefits, but only in the place where it is registered; the moment you are no longer there you lose all these benefits. It was a way that the government had created to retain the population in the countryside and to avoid going to the cities, that swelled with theindustrialization.
Like this, Theurbanization process that brings people to town, fruit ofChina's industrialization, is that it is defining what will happen in the future. By the way, here is an observation: I traveled a lot throughChina in the three years I lived there, and I’ve never seen a person barefoot, or living in wooden crates, or under bridges, as we see here inSao Paulo. It was Franciscan poverty, but I didn't see any beggars - this is talking about 1994.
Poor West, it is not? What vaccines are saving the West? Where they come from? From China, from India, from Russia, these vaccines are saving us - Fausto Godoy Tweet
Honor and ‘do not lose face’
Well, this Chinese who is going to the city is not used to urban ways of life, is used to country life, where it breeds free-range chicken, like turtle, cricket, Locust, etc. That is, Theeating habit it's thechinese hygiene standard in the city still repeats the pattern of the countryside a lot and this is what I believe was the cause of the spread of thecoronavirus. They say, inclusive, that were mollusks that were sold in street markets that were contaminated. But this could have happened anywhere in the world. Apandemic has no author, started inWuhan proven, but when that happened toChina claimed he was still investigating. That's because she didn't want to “lose face”, lose face: one of the mainstays ofchinese civilization it's the "mianzi”, what does honor mean, ‘Don't lose face’.
NoConfucian universe, how the individual has to act – and it only takes place – in society, he has to have the respect of that society, have to have your honor recognized and, therefore, can't “lose face”. This is what happened: aChina, in the beginning I was being accused of having started the pandemic; and the authorities reacted badly when they were accused of having developed the virus in a laboratory in order to contaminate the world. See that nonsense thing, it means that they were first contaminated, in order to then contaminate others? Looks like the paranoia ofWestern it's an incredible thing, how late we are with respect touniversal thinking.
Then, thechineses went to find out and recognized that it really started there, and started doing everything. We are seeing thechineses sending doctors everywhere in the world, mainly to the neighboring region, what matters most to them, countries likeMyanmar, Bangladesh, and even to regions of theAfrica. Besides that, are thechinese companies who are developing vaccines and now exporting to the whole world. Look at the nonsense of seeing authorities talking about “comunavírus”, Thechinese communist virus that came to contaminate us. But who is offering us the greatest amount ofvaccines it is precisely theChina. And it's doing this for everyone.
It is clear that the manufacturing companies profit from this, butChina is attending to us before attending to herself: a billion and 300 million people to be vaccinated is a project that we have no idea. Look at the case ofBrazil: we have 210 million inhabitants and we are in this mess, in this chaos to do the vaccination. AChina not only has it organized its vaccination process but it is sending vaccines to the whole world, not to mention sending technicians and equipment to several countries, and even sent respirators to us.
Not only is China not already organizing its vaccination, it is sending vaccines worldwide, and not to mention the sending of technicians and equipment - Fausto Godoy Tweet
IHU On-Line - That is, we can once again that this pandemic episode, although painful for the whole world, shows China's resilience and reaction power under adverse situations?
Fausto Godoy - In this sense, there is another thing that is fundamental inconcept of Confucianism. I consider that the Chinese civilization has some pillars. The first is theConfucianism, another is theunity of the territory and two others, very important, which are the question that I commented onhonor of the individual in the social context; the other is theguanxi, which is the camaraderie, the friendship.
Between theConfucianist fundamentals of the concept of society, the friend, the neighbor, the one closest to you is of enormous importance. It's what I call relationships / camaraderie, because you need to live in harmony. By the way, this search for harmony is also at the base ofchinese civilization. And even before thedinastia Zhou [it is estimated that the beginning of this dynasty took place with the fall ofDinastia Shang, at the end of the 10th or 9th century BC, and its ending with the rise ofdinastia Qin, in 221 a.C.], a political-philosophical concept called ‘the Mandate of Heaven’.
According to this philosophy, asociety, based on the principle of harmony between all, and common welfare, to function in harmony delegates full powers to the ruler, be it tribal leader, governor, emperor, or even theCommunist Party. This ‘conceptheaven's mandate’, means ‘do for me what you think is right’, as long as you are - and that word is fundamental - virtuous. The kingdom, or empire, or government, have to be virtuous. The moment the emperor, the ruler, or theCommunist Party, no longer prove yourself virtuous to society, that same society destitutes him. Ahistory of China it was always like that: ondinastia Shang, and in all that followed, it happened this way. Usually, when a group, a tribe, takes power, society delegates theheaven's mandate; and she leads and decides for the group with total leadership until the moment when it no longer corresponds to her; she then falls, and another dynasty begins, and so it goes.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/NWSecBgPzIU
Communist Party and the ‘mandate from heaven’
It isheaven's mandate principle is what justifies what is happening in theChina. The question is as follows: will theChinese Communist Party holds heaven's mandate currently? He has. Example: when I lived inChina, in 1994, the Chinese had no right to own a car, House; everything belonged to the state. Today they not only have all of this, they also have important private companies, have the largest number of billionaires in the world and will do tourism anywhere. Look, I went toValence onSpain - and those you know will be touringValence, in fact a beautiful city? - and there I met Chinese tourists. This means that these people that I have lived with 1994 who didn’t even have the right to own a home now do tourism around the world.
Therefore, they are delighted with theCommunist Party! Of course there are dissidents, of course there are reactions, mainly inHong Kong, but apart from these exceptions, that are reduced yet, the Chinese is very happy with his leadership. And I bring that to the question ofpandemic. When the pandemic started to break out, TheCommunist Party decided to close immediatelyWuhan, with your 12 millons of citizens; the whole society obeyed at the time. On here, we speak inclose São Paulo, it's theBrazil, but we did it? We stay at home locked up? Realize the difference? What made thechineses obey is that theconcept they have of life in society makes them feel responsible for others. They are not just following orders.
The concept that we Westerners, and Brazilians in particular, we have is based on theindividualism: the guy wants to have a beer and go, doesn't like a mask because it hurts his nose and doesn't wear it, and we see what's going on. And we are, also, seeing what's going onChina. It is efficiently controlling the pandemic outbreak.
We can kick China's shin, but she is a strategist, with old look, and will think ‘leave this whole thing, everything will pass and I will hold on to it ’- Fausto Godoy Tweet
IHU On-Line - How to understand Chinese diplomacy? What are Brazil's biggest mistakes in understanding this diplomacy?? What are the possible consequences?
Fausto Godoy - How old is thechinese civilization? No minimum, 5 a thousand years! What is the time of ourBrazilian civilization? 500 years. Then, how does a civilization more than five thousand years old look at “boys” from 500 years? We hurt them with themanifestations of our president, of some deputies and whoever was speaking those insults against them. We hurt thehonor concept, Themianzi, from them, we hurt them, sim, is enough. We face them in that - the “mianzi”- what they need most to feel welcome in the world. But we have as a filter the 6 thousand years of history. Who was the greatest strategist in history? A gentleman calledSun Tzu (544 a.C. – 496 a.C.), that wrote "The art of war” [with version of the original translated into Portuguese in an edition of Geração Editorial, 2009].
Then, how are strategists, they consider theBrazil very important for them, because it provides them with what they need most, that is food; if we look at thegeography of China, we will see that it is the third largest country in the world in territorial terms, but it only owns a third of its territory with habitable and arable land; two thirds are or mountains, or deserts. Actually, a billion and 300 millions of inhabitants live in a geographical space that goes fromRio Grande do Sul up toBahia. What is fundamental for these people all embedded in such a small space? Food! And who can feed theChina? AEurope will produce soy that is the basis of Chinese food? So, we are fundamental to it (and African countries too).
40% of ouragribusiness exports go toChina. A “strategic partnership”Who signed with us in 1993 it is fundamental for her. We can "kick your shin", but, as a strategist with an old eye, aChina will think ‘never mind this thing; will pass '. And did what he had to do: certainly following your government's instructions, the Chinese ambassador wrote a heavy letter and fought withBolsonaro, his son and some other authorities, but left it at that, because she will not compromise what is essential for her because of some ill-mannered on duty, because who knows how long these people will be in power. Even because, also in the case ofvaccine, his detractors ‘had to swallow his words” with theaid from the chinese.
AChina maintains a long-term look at everything it does. Its concept is that of eternity, or weight, and ashistory lessons are fundamental to it. The Chinese know where they come from, who are, and have a road map to where they want to go.
In international relations, countries have no friends, have allies, interests; relationships are based on interest - Fausto Godoy Tweet
IHU On-Line - We can, So, to say that China looks at this Brazilian government as a wave that will pass and that is why it looks ahead, while we here are struggling on this wave without a broader look?
Fausto Godoy - It is clear! And it's not even with theBolsonaro government: is with respect to governments. In international relations, countries have no friends, have allies, interests: relationships are based on interest. It's atChina has every interest in maintaining relations with us, because she needs us, not only for food but also for our other commodities. And I don't see any problem with this. We, Brazilians, we are left with complex thinking that we will be the country ofcommodities while the others will produce technology, but so what? You can't eat computers and cell phones, neither? And our field, our agriculture, has immense technology. We have technology oriented to a fundamental sector.
The world is fitting into windows of opportunity. So much so that theAsia practically does withoutWestern: the main partners ofEast Asia are the East Asian countries themselves. In November of last year, China, Japan, South Korea eAustralia created aComprehensive Regional Economic Partnership, which will be the first major free trade zone on the planet (signed the agreement, but we still need to rectify it). THEWestern is out of this process. In him, they have technological partners – China, Korea eJapan -, have those who provide cheap labor – Vietnam, Philippines -, and have a huge market. Almost dispense with the rest of the world. This is a danger, a threat that no one is seeing here. We are still in the worldWestfaliano while they are in another sphere. This is my biggest concern, because we are forming almost two incommunicable worlds: a world that is looking at the other, and the other one who is getting enough of himself.
Of course there will be challenges for them, because there will also come a time when they will fight each other. And they even fight: the Chinese don't like the Japanese, who don't like Koreans, and so on. And now you have theChina invading the islets ofSouth China Sea. Therefore, what I'm talking about is that nothing is rosy. As I said, in international relations there is neither black nor white, it's all gray. This moment is what's happening, and to see how far we in the West are displaced from this reality, that has already arrived and that is post-Westphalian, with all its concepts of transnationality, just look at our reality: we are still fighting over territories. See if it fits todaySyrian wars, doAfghanistan, doIraq, the massacres that are perpetrating in the name of what? We are all infected by these religious radicalisms, and they are there, quiet in their path.
See if there is room for Syria's war today, the massacre they are doing in the name of what? We are all infested by these religious radicalisms and they are there, quiet, following their path - Fausto Godoy Tweet
IHU On-Line - What changes with the departure of Donald Trump and the arrival of Joe Biden in the relationship between USA and China? And in the current geopolitics?
Fausto Godoy - Changes verbosity, virulence changes, changes the force, changes the “backyard fight”. Obviously theUSA, TheWestern, we are all faced with the emergence ofEast. The world can no longer escape: the fastest growing region is the Pacific, it's atIndia also. This world is already! We just haven't realized yet. You'll still see - I won't, because i am 75 years old - a world radically different from the one we had. When I was born in 1945, the greatest world power was theEngland, “The sun didn’t set in the British empire”, said political jargon. But, from theSecond World War, theUSA were already taking the lead; the second half of the twentieth century was a hegemony shared between theSoviet Union and theU.S; later, falls the Soviet Union, in 1991, and continueUSA howhegemon. Therefore, in my lifetime, saw the civilizational axis and theworld hegemony pass through various regions. And I have no doubt that the next hegemonic region will be theAsia. What is not known yet is for how long, may be for another ten years, or for a long time, will depend on the political will and the ability of Asian leaders.
TheUSA are faced with the reality ofChina. For now, the thing is still thematic, It is "trade war”, and everything, but the hole is further down, this is angeoeconomics transfer, and perhaps of a geopolitics, FromUSA / West to theChina. What is interesting is that China will never want to impose its values as this is not part of its civilization, she doesn't think she owns the truth; think you own your truth. That's what Xi Jinping said inDavos Forum. This dispute will continue due to the need for the world to fit in and interact economically and politically.. Only that we in the West - not only in Brazil - are not understanding that this is unbelievable: instead of confronting, it is necessary to face that the world is polyhegemonic, and in this world it is no longer necessary to impose concepts.
Atrade war it's just a small part in a much bigger dispute that is forworld hegemony, Because theChina already said it wants to be the biggest economy in the world. But it will be? Only time will tell, because it also has huge challenges, has urbanization, the population issue, depopulation, have a lot of problems, also, that are not easy to solve, no.
The world can no longer escape, the fastest growing region is the Pacific, com a China, and with India too - Fausto Godoy Tweet
IHU On-Line - What did those years of experience in Asian countries reveal to you? What impressed you most about these experiences?
Fausto Godoy - Look, I never thought about it, but I will risk. I think the thing that marked me most in the whole Asia was the search for harmony in the social context. There are disputes and fights, but not everyday, be in Japan, on China, in Myanmar, even in Muslim countries – Pakistan, Kazakhstan, except for radical groups - living in society is much more organic, much more harmonic, less forceful and much less quarrelsome. People in Asia have this vision; maybe it’s the religion that does that; The Confucian universe it's the buddhism make you look at human relationships in a less aggressive way. This I find very comforting: is the most profound lesson I brought from Asia. It is something very, very important in my life.
Originally published in http://www.ihu.unisinos.br/606633-china-uma-sociedade-modernamente-prospera-que-reconfigura-o-poder-global-entrevista-especial-com-fausto-godoy
